Cynthia Gayton - Decoding the Crypto Creative Landscape

In this Season 4 premiere, we welcome attorney and professor Cynthia Gayton, author of Guide to Contracts, Copyrights & Trademarks for CryptoCreatives. Discover how to safeguard your digital art, blockchains, NFTs, and overall brand in the rapidly expanding crypto space. Cynthia shares her expert insights on intellectual property law, practical tips for creators, and real-world examples to help you avoid common legal pitfalls. Whether you’re a seasoned entrepreneur or just starting your journey into blockchain-based projects, this conversation is packed with guidance to keep your creative endeavors secure and thriving digitally. Tune in and find out how to protect what you build!

Transcript

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I always anticipate that whatever creative project that you're working on will be successful. That way you will anticipate future issues that you might face. You are listening to intangible the podcast of intangible law, plain talk about intellectual property Please welcome your host. Leticia Caminero, welcome back, everyone to the very first episode of season four. I'm so excited to be back for those of you who are new here, this is the podcast that features one of a kind guests and spotlights creativity, entrepreneurship and the importance of intellectual property protection today, we're talking with Cynthia Gayton, an innovative attorney and the author of guide to contracts, copyrights and trademarks for crypto creatives. Her book is a vital resource for anyone looking to safeguard their passion projects in the crypto space. Stay tuned for a powerhouse conversation that will spark first ideas and help you stay ahead of this digital revolution. Let's start. My name is Cynthia Gayton. I'm an attorney based in Arlington, Virginia. I'm also an educator. I teach at the George Washington University in the engineering school. I am originally from Seattle, Washington. I have an undergraduate degree from George Washington University in international affairs, and a JD from George Mason University in Arlington, Virginia. I started as a technical writer in terms of background, and I in the tech industry for for many years. And because of the nature of technical writing jobs, you're always looking for work. So I decided I was going to go to law school, which I had intended to do early on in my career, and did that and went to George Mason law I've been practicing ever since I started my own practice. Initially. I've worked for other some private companies, the federal government and nonprofit organizations. Over the course of my career, I'm a volunteer attorney for Washington area lawyers for the Arts, which I have done since since graduating from law school. And so that's my my background. I continue to be an attorney and an educator, great, and that journey of learning and then teaching let us to delete you to write the book, or you were curious about the topic, and you started researching how, how did you decide to write this book and how it came to reality. Actually, I have a textbook that I am currently editing, but I was also editing at the at the time, I had a 2017, edition of the book, I remember correctly, and that's true. And as I was editing the book, I started looking at things that were going on new in in contracts. So you, as an attorney, know how much contracts takes up of your your practice, and how important it is. So I learned about blockchain as a result, and learned about what they were calling smart contracts. I had learned about Bitcoin earlier in about 2013 I had a steampunk art gallery, and I was trying to find inexpensive ways to sell products, and thought Bitcoin was going to be the key, because the transaction costs were so low, and we realize now that that was a very short lived time frame when Bitcoin was cheap and when the transaction costs were were cheap. So I had already been interested in Bitcoin, and then as a result of editing this book, I learned about blockchain, and then I wanted to see how smart contracts fit into the idea of contract law. So that led me to finding out about some local organizations that were having programs or discussions about blockchain generally. That led me to an organization that had a presentation that I went to, and I met someone there who was showing me about digital works that were being bought and sold using Blockchain technology. At the time, it was a it was an it still exists. It's called Counterparty. And. One of the first crypto art platforms, buying and selling platforms, and he was an artist using Counterparty, and he and I decided to do a podcast on this new area of what we were calling crypto art, for lack of a better term, and so we did the podcast until early 2019, and it was called Art on the blockchain. I didn't find as as a result of, you know, investigating this, I didn't see any materials talking about this for artists, because, as I had mentioned earlier, I was I'm still a volunteer attorney at Washington area lawyers for the arts, and I didn't see anything how artists could be educated about this new opportunity for artists to buy and sell their works, especially as visual artists. And for the person that I was, the CO producer, I guess, and the CO participant in art on the blockchain, he was a, he continues to be a visual artist. And so how do you, you know, get involved with this area? And he was also a musician and a DJ, and he continues to do that. So it was an also an area that I thought would be perfect for the music industry as a distribution tool. So that led to writing this guide, because I didn't think there was enough out there. There was to educate artists and musicians about crypto generally and how it would impact them. That is a way of distributing their their work. So that's that's the path to the guide to assist those who are completely unfamiliar with the territory. And at the time, crypto creatives and crypto artists was those were the terms that were used to describe people who were either writing about creating art related to crypto as and creative people who were involved with that industry. So that was the kind of the blanket term used to describe people, artists, who were involved in in the crypto industry. That's why the title guide to copyrights and trademarks for crypto creatives, yes, diving in into your book first, let's take a step back on on the terms and talk about blockchain. I know it's now. It's very popular. We hear everywhere. But what is it? Exactly, a blockchain? Well, we can go back to the Foundation, which would have been Bitcoin blockchain. And in its simplest sense, it is a public record of transactions. And it is often called an online public ledger, so it keeps track of buying and selling exchanging cryptocurrency in in the case of Bitcoin, that that was the original blockchain. So if you engaged with Bitcoin, buying and selling Bitcoin, or any anything related to buying and selling of Bitcoin, it was recorded on this public ledger called a blockchain that and now there are several blockchains and several kinds of cryptocurrencies, but the foundation is the Bitcoin Blockchain. And anyone who's familiar with ether and Ethereum, there was a time when you had to have Bitcoin first before and in order to purchase ether. And so many people who are involved with nfts and as example, now, they may have originally had to have Bitcoin and then purchased ether using Bitcoin, and are now part of the Ethereum blockchain. So that's that is a kind of in a nutshell, what a blockchain is the the thing that attracts people to it is this idea that it is so difficult to unwind a transaction. Once a transaction has been been recorded on this public ledger, it's very difficult, very expensive to change anything related to that transaction. So everything. Predominantly is moving forward and not going backward. So you as an attorney will think about things like amending, which is what I was thinking about. How do you amend? How do you make changes to a transaction? Because human beings make mistakes. The way this was structured was to, in many respects, discourage mistake making, because it was so difficult to unwind a transaction. Blockchains cannot enforce things in the real world. It relies on the code. So the smart contract is, is a IS, IS code. Primarily, it tells the participants in the transaction what they can and cannot do related to this particular transaction, related to this particular code. So if it is not outlined in the code, if certain things are not granted or permissions granted in the code. It is not enforceable by the code. So that's where a lot of people smart contract is, unfortunately, the common term that's used for the code itself, but it was intended to be a contract as between parties that would be recorded on the blockchain and not necessarily reflect things that would recur occur in the in the real world, it has not been able to sufficiently duplicate what regular contracts but we normally understand as contracts and be enforceable in this in the same way, there are many efforts to mimic the contracts that we are used to. But as you know, it's with something like a public ledger that is where the parties are from, all over the world, the laws that guide contracts elsewhere, it's hard to coordinate all those things, harmonize all of those contractual terms that we understand based on jurisdiction. So it's it's in its rudimentary phases, as far as I'm concerned. But I think the important thing is, in order to understand it, it is that. It is a it is a record keeping tool. The smart contract is not a self averting body that helps with everything, and you don't need to worry about jurisdictions. It's very much a tool that it can be used, but you have to make sure that whatever you use in it, or whatever using it for it, you should have been backed with a real contract, with a physical contract, or a traditional contract. Well, what's happening now, and I'm happy to see it is there are often links within the smart contract itself. It will point to the traditional, for lack of a better word, contract in an in digital form to which the parties agree. And so it could that could also be part of the smart contract itself. So if you have an opportunity to look at the smart contract code, a lot of the real world language is is set up as text in the code itself, but the enforceability of it. You have to go out into the world world to to enforce it. If you have, if there's been a breach, if something has not happened in a way that you anticipated, you still have to deal with the real world circumstances. But there is, there are many efforts to mimic real world contracts in in the code, it just isn't, yeah, hasn't been fully developed because, you know, if there's a there's a tendency to use the laws of a dominant country as the as the basis, but it may not be enforceable in another country. So it's it's a it's a complicated thing. I encourage people, whenever they do work with a smart contract that is not one that they wrote, to make sure that they understand it. And if there are terms and conditions which often appear on the websites where smart contracts are executed, that you read the terms and conditions, so that you understand what the the website, whoever is managing the smart contract says about what the terms and conditions are. So there's many layers, just like with with any. Online Transaction. There are terms and conditions. There are so many things out you know that you have to be be aware of, especially when there's significant amounts of money involved with the transaction. Yes, of course, because that's the moment when you really need an enforceable contract. Everything is great when you have a good relationship with the other party, there's no issue, but the moment something goes wrong, you need to be able to rely on enforceable contract you can take to court or to an arbitration or mediation or whichever form, and you can actually enforce it. So it's important to look out not just copy paste whatever you see people using, just to make sure that you know the implications of of the smart contract, and also whatever is behind in this, in the little in the small letters, right, right now that that's very important, and It is difficult, because people tend nowadays to use arbitration as the means of taking care of any disputes, but arbitration is jurisdiction driven also. So the smart contract might have been intended to be enforced in Switzerland as an example, but if you're based in the United States, you have to abide by the arbitration clause if you agree to arbitration. So you would be subject to the laws of Switzerland if, and if you don't have an attorney in Switzerland, or if you don't happen to know the laws of Switzerland you are, you do have some, you know, some things to take into consideration. That is just like now, even just despite blockchain, despite all of these, these new types of transaction recording devices or opport or options, paying attention to the jurisdiction is, is important, and as we know, litigation is, is infrequent. Most transactions, certainly with goods and services, go through without a hitch, without without having to deal with the dispute. But we also know that it is, it is evolving, still with established even with established companies, it is evolving to reflect more of an international clientele, perhaps or or customers. And so it is, is constantly evolving that's the most important part, to first learn what you're doing, understand what you're doing, the implications, and make sure that you're relying on something that is actionable, and then it's real, and also you understand all the implications behind it. So how do we link all these blockchain smart contracts to IP to trademarks and copyright. Well, one thing that has definitely evolved since I first started getting involved with this is at first people were promoting, there were a lot of websites that were promoting that blockchain will take the place of copyright filing, and that it won't be necessary to file for copyright protection in any jurisdiction. You could rely on blockchain to do that, that I have not seen a promotion for that in probably two years. And the reason for that, of course, is that blockchain does not take care of it, it, it might assess, assist you with supporting your assertion that you have copyright in a particular work or You have the trademark and represented in on some commercial product, but it doesn't take the place of government protection. So it's for nowadays. I consider it a belt and suspenders. If there's any question about whether or not you are you use the trademark first in commerce, which would be required in the United States are you able to show use of the trademark in commerce? For copyright, it has to be fixed in a tangible medium of expression, which also includes computer code, if you're able to indicate that it is evidence of copyright or evidence of trademark, but it is not the substitute of either one of those things the government still have to recognize we we have not gone beyond government, yet jurisdictions still matter, and unless the jurisdiction recognizes that the transaction or some evidence of a. A work is the same as having filed the work with that jurisdiction. It's still just it doesn't necessarily mean anything unless the the the country or the jurisdiction recognizes it as as something. So the relationship for copyright and trademark is, in my mind, only as evidence of those things and not and it could help with for example, there was a very strong movement to have royalties paid. For example, if, if a song was played on a on a radio station or or online or something, you could use a blockchain, Blockchain smart contract to pay everyone the the royalties they were entitled to using those, those smart contracts and that could you know that it's still just an idea. I haven't. I've seen at least three different attempts at trying to do that on a global level. It is, it has not been successful, and a lot of that is because there are entities that are very much involved in in making making money from providing those services right now. So there's not much of an incentive to replace it with something that's not in their control, because that is part of the ethos of blockchain, is that it is not in anyone's control, that there are people who are participating in managing the blockchain on a volunteer basis, and it is not centralized. So if with introducing organizations that are trying to centralize or control blockchains and control the ledgers, it kind of goes against the the idea of a distributed ledger, which which blockchains are, were originally considered to be and had been encouraged to be so, so to to the extent that you could keep track of copyrights, whether it was music or art, this is one thing that was kind of awesome about thinking About this, it didn't matter what the medium was, because it could still keep track of the transaction. Regardless of medium, all you'd have to do is identify the medium, but it didn't depend on having the medium attached. This is another thing worth noting about blockchain is that it has to be pretty lightweight in order for it to function properly. So when you, for example, binds sell art, let's say it's an NFT, or even music, there is a link to the file containing that music, or link to the file can with the with the art. The art itself is not on the blockchain, because it takes our as a if it's a halfway decent file, if it's considered a high resolution file, as an example, it is a huge file, and it would clog up the blockchain, because the transaction would not be nimble, it would not be fast. So this was a way of streamlining the blockchain transactions by having the storage be separate from the ledger itself, from the blockchain ledger itself. So so when people talk about art being on the blockchain, which was kind of our mock point with the with the podcast, is that it's not there. This is not to say because there are some pieces, art pieces that are actually on the blockchain. They're actually stored and move along on the blockchain, but because it is a it is something that does take a lot of of space, very, very few artists or musicians are attempting to have the actual file transmitted or exchanged using on blockchain using a smart contract. It's usually a link that is on the smart contract that points you to your own personal file related to that transaction. So I wanted to point that out any any implications on making that difference of putting in in the blockchain or not? Is there any risk if you don't put it inside the blockchain, or is it okay either way? Well, the risk is similar to and another thing I want to emphasize is that a lot of the things that people think about now on you know, even without understanding. Blockchain at all still exists, even in crypto. In the crypto space, for example, dead links. You have to if you're going to store your art files or your music files off the blockchain, then somebody has to maintain it, and you want to make sure that that there's some reliable that your files are being maintained in a reliable way. Some people will host their their art files or their music files and on their own. Some artists do that themselves. Some platforms will provide that service to you, but then you run the risk of, if you don't pay for the storage, then the storage, the place where your your files are stored, have no obligation to maintain files for you, because it does, it takes up space on their own, on their on their own hosting services. There's something called IPFS that a lot of people use a lot originally, many platforms that sell nfts would use IPFS, which was a way to make sure that the distributed, decentralized nature of buying and selling nfts was available to people as people were buying and selling nfts In the future, that there would always be a reliable, You know, the file would always be there. Unfortunately, it relies on use. If people don't access the the file where the art is stored on on a, you know, somewhat regular basis, the places where the file is stored could decide not to store it anymore because of their own constraints on their storage, and these are, in many cases, volunteers who volunteer just to store this data. But, you know, they don't have an obligation to keep it. They don't have an obligation to keep it, no, but that's important. That's important to note, of course. So it's a, it's a voluntary basis, and you have to be aware where are you sending your files to, and if it's something reliable, or if you're willing to have the risk of it's changing from one day to the next, actually, right? Yeah, it's important to know that it is often disclosed. People, as as you probably know, don't read their terms and conditions, so they, because it's usually disclosed, it says that that they are not, they're not responsible for third party websites, right? And this is true for any kind of service that you're engaged with on online right now anyway, this is not new, but it the initial stages of it. It there were so few people involved, there were so few files that were that anybody needed to worry about. Now it's boomed, and so a couple of things have happened, some platforms that buy and sell nfts As an example, they have their own hosting servers that retain the files related to nfts as an example. So you want to know, or at least find out, how things are stored, and how you will become aware of any destruction of your file, because as we are going to start experience or people are going to start experiencing more and more. Experiencing more and more, is if there's any dispute with regard to whether you own or whether you rightfully own a file, or have possession or have access to a file, you may suddenly find yourself no longer having access to it. So I do know of many artists and musicians who actually, as part of the transaction, give you a file that's basically backup that you can retain on your own. There are many artists who grant a Creative Commons license to you so that you are once you have access to the file, you can with via whatever means that you have authority from the artist to use that file. So people, the artists, are becoming more sophisticated with, with making sure that they're COVID. Collectors are happy with their purchases. Nobody who is in this field seriously wants their collectors to be unhappy with with the transaction. But that really I encourage artists to find other other artists that are well respected and that other people regard with respect as artists to follow what what they do, because there are actually quite a few artists who have, you know, a lot of integrity and respect for for their collectors as well as other artists. So seek out those, those folks. Alright? So, I mean, you want to make sure that whatever transaction and relationship you're you're keeping, it's make sure that they're transparent and when their person sees something from you, make sure that your client knows what their person's in and their risk involved in it, or if they're not willing to take the risk to give them backup files or any other plan B kind of method for them, Right, right? And on that artwork, we can use also the blockchain. We can use it for other purposes. We can use this as on and has authentication tool. Or we can use it to trace the the life of the of the art once it leaves the there's the shop of the artist. So can you tell us more about that? Well, this goes to the idea of provenance, and that was a very, very important thing at the beginning, because artists, visual artists in particular, are very, very concerned about showing that the art was created by the person who say that they created it the way it has kind of spun out is you still, if you're if you're the artist and you really want to establish provenance, Blockchain is a tool. It is not the end. You can the provenance in terms of ownership of a particular item that has started out as kind of a blockchain native piece, as opposed to a physical piece, then you can, you should be able to trace once when that item was minted, and that would mean, you know, created for purposes of buying and selling via blockchain, and show all the subsequent transactions, all the all the addresses of those who had bought and sold the piece over the course of its its lifetime. So as a that's that's a a tool. The problem with that is making sure that the artist name, and this is a something that people don't necessarily pay attention to. The creator of the token, which is a representation of the transaction, is not the same as necessarily the same as the artist. So when you see a creator, it's being whoever this sometimes means the creator of the token and not the person who did the art. So you want to make sure and and again, real, trustworthy artists will tell you and and inform you upon request which pieces, if you see, if you see a token or you see an NFT that has their name attached to it, they will tell you whether or not it's it's theirs. Always check to to make sure the way smart contracts are designed, not everybody is is particularly sophisticated about creating smart contracts, but you want to make sure that you know who the artist is. You want to make sure that you know is there a difference between the creator of the token that represents the transaction and the creator of the artwork. Some platforms make it a point to make sure that the artist's name appears, but you as the purchasers. But if you're spending more than you know, $5 as far as I'm concerned, on that, on a toke, on a NFT, it's it's up to you to find out and make sure that the that the especially if you're trying to support an artist to make sure that the artist has okayed that sale you are listening to intangibia, the podcast of intangible law, plain talk about intellectual property. What? Other implications are in blockchain for the artwork, apart from authentication, that we know it can be used, but it's not the ultimate tool. I mean, you have to back it up with other other methods and also make sure that whoever you're making a transaction with is someone reliable, and you can also have a reliable relationship, not only with with the technology, but also the person behind the technology. So what other ways we can use the blockchain for art or music or other medium? Well, there's something that has been happening recently. I've I've learned about people using Blockchain as a form of fundraising for art projects, and this is similar to a lot of the crowdfunding platforms that people are familiar with. So the film industry is now using Blockchain as a way of doing something similar to other crowd funding methods. You have to be careful about that, because you want to make sure that is not considered to be a security, that somehow or another, you're you're selling a security as as you try to raise money for a project. But I do know film companies that are using Blockchain. I've known about people who write articles or write books who are using Blockchain to sell the the books. And this is very interesting, because anyone who is a is an author can appreciate, you know, first being able to track what's happening with your book into the future. You can you know, for example, Amazon doesn't tell you, necessarily, how your book is being sold in the future or resold, right? You have no idea if your if your book or your work is being resold, but blockchain helps you do that. And this would, this is across all, all art forms, book or or anything. But for books, it's, it's having that insight is, is pretty it's, it's very interesting to be able to see that it with articles. Especially it's hard to make money selling an academic piece if you were writing an article for a journal, but if you really did a lot of work on something, a lot of research on an article, and you're able to sell it as a as a NF, via NFT, or using an NFT, you can finally make a little money from the academic writing that you did. And that's pretty exciting, too, to have different sources of income. I I agree with many other creators, generally, that you want to have a hybrid approach to your creative endeavors, not to rely on any one form of manifestation of the work, whether it's physical or digital, always try to have as many available any formats available as possible, so you can take advantage of whatever becomes popular. So that's kind of exciting as an alternative, additional way of spreading your your work around. So those are things that I think are pretty interesting. And another way of using Blockchain that I think is is exciting and our collaborative works, and this will require effort on the part of the creatives involved to make sure that the rights of all the parties, regardless of where they are from, To make sure that their their rights are protected. There's a tendency, generally among creatives, but in particular in this in this area, to think that we'll let the chips fall where they may. We're not going to. It's more important to do the work than to worry about rights in the future. But the problem, of course, is that every time money gets involved, then everybody's rights are also bought to the forefront. So if you think about it in advance, it'll prevent some headaches in the future, because it's really hard to recreate your conversations that you had on Zoom years later when your product or service, or your idea or your manifestation of your collaborative music becomes popular, and you're trying to remember what happened. Take care of it at the beginning. Make sure everybody's covered. And nobody likes to hear that, but it really will. It will save you money and a lot of headache. Always anticipate that whatever creative project that you're working on will be successful. That way, you will anticipate future issues that you might face if you enter into projects saying, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm not planning on making any money. I think that that's a kind of a bad approach. I understand why people do it, but think that it'll do well. Anticipate that it'll be successful, and plan accordingly so that you you will be able to face money, distribution issues, rights distribution issues in the future, yeah, because that's one thing that has lawyer. We often say to everyone when they are for example, the analogy getting married. They are very happy. Everyone is very much involved in the process, and everything is pink and everything is bright and beautiful, but when they're getting divorced, it's a different story. So it will be the same for any other relationship, like when you everyone starting, there's nothing to worry about, there's no money, there's only the passion that is driven the two parties together or making or collaborating towards something, but once is start getting track or they start earning money, then problems usually come with that. And it's important to have a clear relationship, to have everything in black and white, so everyone knows where they're standing, right and you know, like I said, nobody have been working with artists for a long time, and it is really hard to get that through their heads, because they are more interested in the in the creative parts of it. But I have to say, in this industry, as with, as with, you know, other artists, the folks who are able to withstand economic hardship and professional hardship are those who did take the time and think through some of the issues. I have to say, almost invariably, it may not be the most sexy thing to do, but if you want to make a career out of something, and you want to do something for the rest of your life, then approach it that way that you want to be able to do this work, then you have to pay yourself. You have to make sure you make some money. The beauty of art, the beauty of being an artist, yes, but also with the goal ahead of a business person to make sure that if you, if you truly want the leap of your art, you need to act as a business person as well. So with that, give us advice for creative creators. So what will be the three main pieces of advice for creators, in general and in particular, the ones creating in this new blockchain, smart contracts nfts world, one thing that I think is important is to, if you Have a question about something, ask, ask someone, don't be afraid to learn more about your industry. I think that has slowed a lot of people down, especially with with dealing with crypto. You don't have to give up your interest in painting in order to get involved with this. You can find ways to make minor goals in participating in this, in this particular technology. So I think the first thing is, is don't be afraid be be really interested in in your art, and how to make sure that people see your art, so be interested in that. Another piece of advice is always ask questions of professionals. If there is an opportunity to hear an attorney and account somebody who's been on the professional side of things, take the take the chance, and take that opportunity and and listen to what they have to say. You may not agree to it tends to be the case that professionals are a lot more conservative than risk takers. But you don't want your attorneys necessarily, or your accountants to be risk takers with your stuff, with your money. So they tend to tell you what the rules are, and then you can plan accordingly. So, you know, take advantage of that. The other thing to take into consideration is, always educate yourself. Continue to educate yourself about your your field of interest, you. And about how you want to move forward. So education is another aspect of this, with regard to crypto generally, anyone who is a crypto artist or crypto creative, anyone who's doing any of these things, this will not be the end of it. Where we are right now. I think I've lived to through five or six lifetimes since I started getting involved with this. So what you think is going to be the case next year will probably not be the case next year. So and anticipate change. This is it. Is it is still evolving. Even though people are making significant amounts of money. There's a lot of money being invested in this. Know that it is going to change. And don't rest with that knowledge. I make an effort myself to continue to learn, because things have changed a lot just in, you know, in the past week, things, things are different from it, from from last week, with a lot of these things. So don't rest with with what you think you understand about this space, because it changes dramatically from from day to day. Not to be paranoid about it, but, but, be realistic, this is a fast paced industry. You have to keep yourself informed at all times, especially if you're pouring your art, your your your creations in these tools, you need to make sure that that is not something that you are going to lose just because you neglect to do your homework or to read or to understand it further, or to us to ask to find advice in people that can guide you through to this very unique world, yeah, and and to recognize also that those a lot of people that got involved with myself included, thought that this might help solve some problems. It might help solve piracy problems, it would help solve copyright infringement problems, that it would encourage people to be more honest. And unfortunately, that is not necessarily the case, but, and that's why I would encourage people to look at this as a tool, as a way to reach your goals, with regard to, you know, cutting down on on piracy of your works, and cutting down and making sure that your copyrights are protected and enforced. So kind of change your mindset from this is all I have to do is make sure it's on the blockchain, and all all my problems have been solved that that is not the case. It is just another, you know, weapon in your arsenal to to protect your work and to keep track of your work. Of course, there's no magic solution to in Benjamin or to fire seeds. It's about making sure you keep an eye on your belongings and and act and decide whether to action or not or to pursue any infringement. But the most important part is to know if someone is using it in the runway or an authorized way. But with that, then you decide whether or not to pursue it. It's good to understand that it's not a magic solution. Is not something that is going to take care of itself, that is going to run and do the work for you. So if you want to make sure that your art is suspected, that people are using it according to what you have authorized them to do, you are the one who has to be vigilant, or hire people to be vigilant for you, right, right? And that's the that really is, is the key and surround yourself with people that you respect and trust, I think is really important here, because it's so it is online. I mean, these are people that you may never meet in person. So, you know, make, you know, make, make the effort to to do kind of your own little surveillance, on, on the on the folks you're, you're working with, because they can disappear. It's, this is kind of the nature of the industry too, is you're, they people come across as being very trustworthy, and next thing you know, they've, they're, they're gone. So take the time. There's those, like I said, it's evolving. There's no rush get involved with it when you're when you're comfortable, dip your toe in in small ways to to figure it out. And I think you'll, you'll learn a lot about yourself, and then you'll learn about about the industry Perfect. Thank you, Cynthia, so much. And can you tell us how and. Anyone who's listening can contact you in case they have better questions, or they would like to be represented by you. Well, my my website is Gayton law.com that My handle is squizzy, which I've had for forever. And I keep thinking I'm going to change it, but I've had it for forever, so, s, Q, U, I, z, z, I, and I have it because I needed a DJ name for for a music website, and the only way I could get access to the music website was to create a DJ name. So that was my DJ name, and I've kept it ever since I started with Twitter, so I haven't changed it. No, it's great. It has a story to handle this story. I mean, mine is only my name, so that's great. So those are the ways to get in touch with me, and I'm admitted to practice in DC and Virginia. Perfect. Thank you, Cynthia, so much. Thank you for your time and for your wisdom. And yeah, I look forward to reading whatever you publish next. And just for reference, the book that we were talking about is called guide to copyrights and trademarks for crypto creatives is available in different platforms. I found it on Amazon, but you can find it in stopping other platforms as well. And thank you, tin Thia for your time and thank you for your work. No thank you so much. It was a pleasure talking to you. We have reached the end of our episode. Greetings from Switzerland. Thank you for listening to intangible the podcast of intangible law, plain talk about intellectual property. Did you like what we talked today? Please share with your network. Do you want to learn more about intellectual property? Subscribe now on your favorite podcast player, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter. Visit our website, www.intangibia.com, copyright Leticia Caminero, 2020. All rights reserved. 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