Intangiblia™
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Intangiblia™
Heidrun Wechter-Essig - The Board Whisperer: Power, Pivots, and Playing the Long Game
Strategy doesn’t fail because it’s wrong on paper; it fails when culture and execution don’t carry it across the line. We sat down with board leader and former CFO Heidrun Wechter-Essig to map the triangle that actually delivers results—strategy for clarity, culture for belief, and execution for momentum—and to explore how that lens changes the way we approach transformation, AI, and M&A.
Heidrun shares hard-won lessons from 50+ deals, calling out hubris as the top red flag and highlighting the underrated signal few teams discuss: a refusal to choose. If leaders can’t say what won’t get done post-close, integration drifts and politics bloom. We talk through practical guardrails—clear decision rights, measurable milestones, and incentives tied to a crisp integration thesis—that keep value creation on track. The conversation also reframes “transformation” from a vague mandate to a capability you build: early wins, peer-to-peer storytelling, and transparency that outlasts the flavor-of-the-month cycle.
On AI, we cut through buzzwords and get specific. Boards need literacy in machine learning and large language models, the ability to ask for explainability, and a scorecard for bias and model risk. Strategic edge comes from targeted use cases that improve decisions, speed innovation, and sharpen focus—not generic tools your competitors can copy. We explore smart versus dumb governance: focus on the few risks that matter with strong controls, give freedom within a framework elsewhere, and replace the illusion of control with clear containment principles for volatile markets.
Finally, we rethink power at the top. Real power is influence—the quiet force that aligns stakeholders and enables excellence—balanced with moments of visible clarity when uncertainty spikes. Heidrun’s stories show how leaders manage contradictions like stability versus reinvention and control versus entrepreneurial freedom, and how legacy is measured in people who can now run the triangle without you. If you’re building a board, leading a deal, or trying to make AI useful rather than noisy, this is your playbook for practical, people-centered change.
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Check out "Protection for the Inventive Mind" – available now on Amazon in print and Kindle formats.
The views and opinions expressed (by the host and guest(s)) in this podcast are strictly their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the entities with which they may be affiliated. This podcast should in no way be construed as promoting or criticizing any particular government policy, institutional position, private interest or commercial entity. Any content provided is for informational and educational purposes only.
I mean, obviously you see, I have a finance background. So I'm a very, you know, call it rational, numbers-driven person from the outset. And I used to believe that good strategy always wins. Okay. You know, that everything can be planned. Logical strategy and, you know, data. You know, as long as you've done your homework, you know, on those two things, you know, it will work. Well, I've learned, you know, actually, um, that I need three things.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Um, and that's strategy. So I do need strategy, I need culture, and I need execution. Um, and all those three, that triangle needs to work in harmony. Now, I do want to mention something because it's being um published a lot, people talk a lot about it, you know, and it's often said that culture eats strategy for breakfast. I mean, that's a common term that you hear a lot. I do have a more nuanced view. Okay. Um, I balance strategy with stakeholder engagement. That's the way forward. Think about a team that has perfect culture, everybody, you know, loves you know what they are doing, etc., but they don't know where they're going. Okay. No strategy. Okay. Well, that's, you know, unfortunately also not necessarily so successful. Or the team, you know, has great culture, again, you know, great harmony. But when it comes to getting things done, there are not that many people that do it really well. So again, you know, that doesn't get you very far. So you really need those three. Yeah. So it is strategy, culture, and uh execution.
SPEAKER_04:Welcome back to Intangibilia. Today we are sitting down with someone who doesn't just sit on boards, she reshapes them. Haydrum sorry for my German is very bad. Haydrum Wetcher Esing has restructure empires closed MIA deals with the same ease as hoarding a cocktail and transformed companies from the inside out with grace and grid. She worked with PNG, Cody, Climbworks, but behind the titles lies a strategist who makes the complex look chic and the impossible inevitable. If you ever wonder what it takes to lead through chaos, integrate AI without the hype, or translate governance into real-world value, grab your espresso or your espresso martini, your metrics, and maybe a mirror, because we are about to get radically real about business transformation, leadership ego, and whether power heals really do help close a deal. Welcome.
SPEAKER_05:Well, thanks, Letitia, for the brilliant introduction, and thanks for having me in your show. Um, so I guess I will introduce myself. Please go ahead. Um, so my name is Heidrun Wegteressig, um, and that's a German name indeed. Um, I advise private equity and venture funds, um, and I also sit on boards, three boards currently, one of them in Climate Tech, um, and one of two of them active in the AI space. Um, and they're really focused on putting AI to work to help companies get better and gain a strategic edge. So those are you know the AI-focused companies. Now, as you mentioned, you know, I have held uh senior CFO and strategy positions in publicly traded companies uh for a long time in Procter Gamble, then in Cody. Um, then I've worked also as CFO in private equity-backed ventures, um, and actually um really focusing on lifelong learning. I have gone back to school. Ah, and I have focused over the last few years in diving much deeper into I would say governance of technology and AI. And we will obviously get into that a little bit during our session.
SPEAKER_04:Ah, that's amazing. That's amazing. So you never stop learning.
SPEAKER_05:No. No, I mean that's something that I believe is necessary. Um, and I mean, I I enjoy it. I believe in today's fast-changing world, it's absolutely necessary that we stay sharp and that we continue to explore and learn and grow. I guess that's really what some people call the growth mindset. Um, but I believe it's very true.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's wonderful. And how do you land here in Geneva in Switzerland?
SPEAKER_05:Um, well, I have actually taken um remote courses, so I've uh studied at uh US universities. I've also um gone for formal training on governance um at a Swiss university in the German-speaking part of Switzerland, but I do surround myself actually a lot with um real strategy and uh technology talent. And we have a very active scene actually here in Geneva as well. We have a wonderful startup scene. So one of the companies whose board I joined recently is actually a company born in Geneva.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, Genoa. Correct. Perfect. Um, so now let's dive into the questions. What is a corporate term you secretly wish we could delete forever?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I I thought about it, and what always comes to mind is the term transformation. Oh, and that's probably interesting for you to hear from me who is very heavily into transformation, but I feel it's overused and it's often sounds like something that's done to people and not with people. Um, and in my experience, uh people respond far better uh when you give them uh tools, clarity, and support to adapt, improve, and find breakthroughs. And that's how I would like to actually frame the transformation work that's being done.
SPEAKER_04:So to engage the the people that are in the in the center of the transformation.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. I mean, I find transformation when you hear it, you're going to be transformed. It feels a little, I don't know, not so comfortable. Yeah, of course. But if I talk about let's uh you know innovate, uh find breakthrough, let's enhance, let's get better, that's a much more engaging conversation that we will have.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it makes sense. It's like you're you're part of the process. You're it's not something is going on you, it's something it's going to happen with you.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. Okay, perfect.
SPEAKER_04:That's a that's a beautiful way of thinking it. So imagine you walk into a struggling boardroom, no one knows what to do. What is the very first question you ask them? Not the polite one, the real one.
SPEAKER_05:So I will first start with some general questions before I get into maybe the real question. I mean, the first couple of questions that I will ask are general questions that will not be so controversial. And that is first asking how does the board see its role vis-a-vis, for example, the executive team, but also vis-a-vis other stakeholders. And the other question I will ask is how does the board make decisions? So by which process uh does the board arrive at a decision? Um, once we have established that, then I might ask uh questions a little bit more around are there things we are we should be talking about, but we are not talking about? Um, maybe because they are uncomfortable or political or too uncertain, because that obviously then gives me a further way in to um the real uh topics that we should at least think about and it opens up. Um I would say when you enter a boardroom, you obviously need to gain trust first. So I would generally always ask the general uh the first questions that are general, but then eventually, um depending on you know how the dynamic of the board team evolves, I would ask those questions and they really are liberating.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so you you ease them in, you start with the with the easy questions, and then you just uh put on the the boots uh a bit after. Yes, that would be the strategy indeed. And what is a transformation strategy you've seen everyone fall in love with that actually doesn't work unless you've got a unicorn team.
SPEAKER_05:So I thought the question was very interesting because you mentioned a unicorn team. So that means obviously these uh, you know, water walkers, high performers, etc. And if I were to answer the question specifically with that in mind, then I would say the transformation strategy that's called agile everything will not work with normal people. Okay, it may work with the unicorns, by the way, even there. I'm not exactly sure um that it will always work. But you know, unicorns can maybe find their way. They are um, you know, able to um, you know, independently find solutions. They're more resilient. Yeah, more resilient. Um, but I would say, even there, by the way, trust decision rights and alignment is quite kind of helpful, even if it's a small team. Um, but um, yeah, I mean, for sure, in larger companies, in larger environments, agile everything is a little bit overhyped. Now, I did want to also talk about what's the classic mistake that's being made in transformation strategies. And you heard me talk about that already earlier, and I feel quite strongly about it because I've seen you know successful and also failed efforts. Um, and what I've seen is the classic mistake is that um top leaders design a transformation plan in isolation. So they sit in the corner office and develop the plan, they roll it out, they say to the organization, you know, this is now what you will do. And then they think execution will follow. Well, it doesn't. Um, because you can't really mandate belief. And that's something we talked about already earlier. I mean, you just can't force people to believe something. So if you come and you say this is the transformation strategy, now go execute, there's a high chance uh that uh you will only get partial results, suboptimal results, or even no results. Um, so that that's really uh another one that I wanted to highlight actually as a key trap.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, is so the person sits in his corner, does the all the work, and then expects everything to magically happen, exactly. Which is not the case. Exactly.
SPEAKER_05:Now you are coming obviously from a country that I would imagine is quite agile, right? In the way it's problems and so on. So you um but but it's really even in you know more call it hierarchical societies, people like to at least understand the you know where, the why, and the how. And they like and and in order to understand these things at a deeper level, it's not enough to just hear uh once. Um, so that's why it's helpful to involve people.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, to engage them in in in in from the brainstorming until the the execution. Exactly, yeah. Makes perfect sense. And you've uh you've seen 50 plus mergers and acquisition deals. Please give us the most underrated signal that a mergers go into flop before the ink dries.
SPEAKER_05:So before I give you the most underrated signal, I want to give you the top signal. The top signal red flag. Red flag, exactly. And I would say it's hubris. And you know, it's often combined with a lack of understanding of the specificities of the business model or the capabilities of the target company. So that's the top, I would say, um, you know, issue I see that uh deal teams come in, they say, oh, well, you know, they don't know what they are doing, we know better.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Um, and of course, there is always an improvement plan when an MA deal is done, and it needs to be because that's how you know the value gets created. But it is really very, very dangerous to come in with the idea I will know it better. And so that's why I say hubris is probably the most uh common, the top um reason why MA deals do not always go according uh to plan. Um and that, of course, then also combined with uh, you know, a few other factors not having done the homework as deeply. But let's come to the underrated one, you know, because you asked underrated. So I was thinking about, you know, what's underrated, you know, and the one thing that did come to mind, and I've seen that in my practical experience, is actually when there is not so much clarity about the um what will not get done and the hard trade-offs um um, you know, on you know what you might deprioritize. Um and that's often a precursor to poor integration planning because you know, people just you know run, run, run, try to get everything done, which typically results in suboptimal integration plans. Yeah. Um you also have this as a symptom of political fear, you know. So if two cultures are coming together and people don't openly say, Well, we're not gonna work on this, let's only work on that. Um, that can also be um, you know, an underrated sign. Um, also can show internal power struggles, um, and um also um can be a precursor on a subtle precursor of powerful future misalignment. So those that that's uh what I so we have the top and then we have the underrated. So the underrated is lack of choices, the top one is hooper, you know, thinking that you know better.
SPEAKER_04:It will be like a snowball effect because they will start like very small, little uh little problems here and there, but you have you have seen it in practice that they start small, but they they end up breaking um the the cultural breaking the dynamic in in the organization.
SPEAKER_05:Absolutely. I mean M ⁇ A deals in general are complicated, they are risky. Um, and so of course there a lot of work is being done on due diligence. Uh and I mean we have you know great teams that uh you know really dig deep. Um and despite that, sometimes you know, these types of things that I was mentioning earlier, which have a little bit more to do with the mindset and behavioral um uh yeah, behavioral um attitudes are are just as important actually, and they are harder to spot. Yeah, of course, of course, because they're they're underrated. Yeah, and they're not on a checklist, you see. You know, you have all the due diligence checklists. You have, you know, okay, we've done the tax due diligence, we've done the IP, we've done, you know, the the legal, exactly, you know, uh we've looked at the books, you know, financial due diligence. So all of that is very structured, but these things are less structured.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so that's harder to spot. So and also it requires for you to have a deeper understanding of the organization of the people involved as well.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, absolutely. And of course you learn by doing. I mean, Hooper's that I was mentioning before is not intentional typically, it comes uh through a lack of understanding of maybe some of the intricacies um of the business, um, but then also a firm belief that one can do it better.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, yeah, perfect sense. And let's see. What is something you believe has a young executive that experienced totally destroyed, and what replaced it?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I mean, obviously, you see, I have a finance background, so I'm a very, you know, call it rational, numbers-driven person from the outset. And I used to believe that good strategy always wins. Okay. You know, that everything can be planned. Logical strategy and you know, data. You know, as long as you've done your homework, you know, on those two things, you know, it will work. Well, I've learned, you know, actually, um, that I need three things.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Um, and that's strategy. So I do need strategy, I need culture, and I need execution. Um, and all those three, that triangle needs to work in harmony. Now, I do want to mention something because it's being um published a lot, people talk a lot about it, you know, and it's often said that culture eats strategy for breakfast. I mean, that's a common term that you hear a lot. I do have a more nuanced view. Okay. Um, I balance strategy with stakeholder engagement. That's the way forward. Think about a team that has perfect culture, everybody, you know, loves you know what they are doing, etc., but they don't know where they're going. Okay. No strategy. Okay. Well, that's, you know, unfortunately also not necessarily so successful. Or the team, you know, has great culture, again, you know, great harmony, but when it comes to getting things done, there are not that many people that do it really well. So again, you know, that doesn't get you very far. So you really need those three. Yeah. So it is strategy, culture, and uh execution.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, of course, because you can have a great plan, great people, but if you don't execute it, then nothing happens. Or you can have great people with no with uh with great execution, but they're executing things that are without a plan. So they it they it could lead to great success out of luck or a big disaster.
SPEAKER_05:It could, yeah, exactly, take them you know in the wrong direction. Absolutely, executing the wrong thing really well.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, exactly. You did perfectly, but that that perfect execution now damaged the the whole organization. That is exactly it.
SPEAKER_05:So so that's what I've learned um in my uh professional experience. Okay, so the triangle.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I like uh to think of a triangle. And what is the most overhyped thing you've heard about AI in the boardroom, and what is the one who no one is talking about enough?
SPEAKER_05:So, I mean, AI in general is by the way a big topic. So I I I you know I I would start out with saying that I would prefer people be a little bit more specific when they talk about AI, because that's already, I find, where some of the confusion starts. But let's keep it simple simple for now. I mean, I would say the most overhyped um thing is that AI will solve problems independently, autonomous, you know, and you know, it'll it'll just you know get things done. I mean, that's quite uh heavily hyped these um recent months. I mean, we are starting to talk about artificial general intelligence and all of these things. Um, and it's also you know very much hyped that AI will then solve bias, because obviously it is you know trained on data and therefore there will be no bias. Well, AI gets trained on historical data. And if the historical data is biased and or not a good prediction for the future, AI may not necessarily solve your problem.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly, because it's it's not uh a magical reasoning overall. It it it it uh it comes from data, from where you feed the machine. So if you feed it wrong data, then it's gonna come out with wrong outcomes.
SPEAKER_05:Absolutely. And that's something that is, I would say, overhyped, so that AI can solve everything. Um, what's underhyped, in my opinion, is a more nuanced view of what AI can really do to gain strategic edge. Few companies and few boards have yet fully understood in which areas um it can really help them make better decisions or you know, accelerate maybe innovation or execute better, or um also, of course, become more efficient. The more efficient part, incidentally, is one that we want to see, but I would say the other ones, you know, which is how do I innovate better, how do I make better decisions, how am I more focused, maybe on my target market, etc., are really the ones where I can do quite a lot if you use it well. And that's not yet very well understood.
SPEAKER_04:And for that, you need to really understand your company, you need to really understand how it works and and and and see what is the benefit of automating that, of of making the AI work for that, and what is also the consequences. What you're gonna lose if you do this change, because that's often what a lot of people don't realize. Whenever you transform or change or implement a new way of working, that means there's gonna be consequences either by the people working that were working in that position or working in that task, or the team itself, or or the way also the consumer is gonna see the product. So there's a lot of things that can really change um that are not necessarily part of the of the uh of the of the thinking plan of of the person doing the decision, making the decision.
SPEAKER_05:Absolutely. And I I think you're mentioning a point that is dear to my heart, which is um things are never static. I mean, we have interaction between a lot of different things in the world, and therefore um it is really problematic to take a static view as you then think about also making changes to AI. And an example would be, and I've been asking that question early on in my board circles, because I'm part of several of those board circles and networks, which is yeah, but you know, if everybody implements the same type of AI, what's the strategic edge for the company, right? So you really is it then about execution? Is it about one company doing it really much better than another? But what does really much better mean? You know, if you have the same basic model that you're drawing from, right? So I think those are the questions indeed that need answering and also a little bit more of a forward thinking. Um, though I will say AI is beautiful in uh scenario planning. It's doing uh, I would say a better job putting a lot of different variables together if you train it right, um, and gives you then these scenarios. What you need the AI to do if you want to make a decision on it, it needs to explain to you which assumptions it has taken for those different scenarios and you know how they hang together. So it's this explainable AI that you want to have.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, of course, because you need to understand how it came to that decision, because it may look like a great decision, but if if it took the wrong assumptions, then the it doesn't make sense in reality.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. And even if you have scenarios, let's say you know we have an optimistic, pessimistic scenario or whatever, you know, or scenarios of different things happening, you need the AI to explain to you how it got there. Yeah, of course, explain.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly. The train of thought. Yes.
SPEAKER_04:Do you think AI literacy is now a critic as critical as the financial literacy at the board level? Or are we still pretending we can outsource the hard questions?
SPEAKER_05:I mean, it is clear that AI literacy is needed and more. I mean, we cannot outsource judgment, of course, um, but and but we need to use the tools that we have and in the right way. Um and so, I mean, as we think about board members are being expected, all of them, to read a balance sheet, um they must also understand the different forms of AI, which I already talked about. So be a little bit more precise in their language, what is a large language model, um, what is machine learning, you know. So at least when a specific topic comes up, people are not talking past each other. So that's the minimum. Um and but they also must um really understand how to measure AI-generated outputs. That's actually a strong focus area that I have in my AI-powered uh board uh roles. Um, for example, how do we quantify data bias? How do we quantify model risk and explainability? Um and that's what board members need to understand. And I will give you even a more concrete example of one of the companies whose board I've joined recently. I mean, they are um building solutions for the certification of aerospace and airplane um parts. Okay. Um so it's certification, so a lot of documents, a screw, you know, we can't.
SPEAKER_04:Are they regulated uh very regulated, exactly?
SPEAKER_05:They need to comply with, of course, a lot of regulations, European or US, depending on the geography. Um, and here, of course, what we want to simplify this. I mean, it's a really great tool to simplify the work of engineers because the AI can help a lot in the process of documenting and making sure, you know, it's traceable and all of that. But we really need to get to a model accuracy that is close to 100%, 99% maybe. Um, that would be an example where we have this language where we say, okay, this is what we need to be able to prove. But boards need to understand these things more generally.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so it's it's very much needed for them to understand the the implications, the the output, everything regarding what's how the AI works and which kind of AI is better in in different scenarios as well.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly, absolutely. And so that uh indeed uh also when then uh an executive team comes and they lay out a plan, that the board can understand, you know, what's the sequencing of the plan, which questions to ask, also maybe ask the right questions on risks and opportunities of the plan, you know, diving deeper into that. It's really important uh that board members reach a certain level of fluency. It doesn't have to be perfect. You will maybe have one person that's got a higher level of fluency, but at least the basic fluency should be there.
SPEAKER_04:At least to speak the language in a way that it can be understandable. Exactly. Exactly. That's my approach with French.
SPEAKER_05:There you are.
SPEAKER_04:Um when you're leading change, how do you avoid becoming the flavor of the month instead of a game changer?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I mean, we talked about it already a little bit earlier, and I believe um based on what we already talked about, I would say it's about capability, make a change about capability and not charisma, you know, not you know, a wonderful presentation. Um establish a mindset also, and I like that one a lot. We have not done this yet. Oh, because that actually opens up doors, right? Um, and um communicate regularly and transparently on progress. That's very important as well, um, because that means you know you're there to stay, right? And you go for early wins, um, you find out what's working and what needs improvement, and you take the feedback on board. That's how you make it, how you embed change rather than making it flavor of the month. And then what you also um, and and by the way, when you listen to that, I mean, people understand that their feedback is actually valued, yeah, which is important. Because again, change is flavor of the month. The boss has said this, this month, you know, so we move in this direction, and then next month we move into the other direction is obviously sometimes conflicting, sometimes conflicting. That's exactly what you want to avoid. So you m you know you really embed it, you really uh make sure it's. About capability and all the other things I was talking about. Another thing that I found very, very helpful when driving change is that I mean, I often have people that are passionate about doing something, so early adopters. And I want to really bring them on board as quickly as possible. And then what I want to do is I want them to tell the story of how they have been able to use maybe a certain tool or how they've been able to affect change. So I want to bring them up on stage potentially. And that makes other people much more curious than if the boss is saying, Oh, now you need to do this, now you need to do that, you know. That's like, you know, your mother, you know, obviously telling you what to do. And most adult people or teenagers already don't really react very well. But if I have, you know, my peer, you know, sort of talk about, well, this is really pretty interesting, you know, I might be a bit more curious. And that's exactly what happens also in large change efforts.
SPEAKER_04:And you can change the perspective because people get in the shoes of the other person and say, Well, this is something that I can see from this side, it really makes sense. So they get excited about it as well.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly, exactly. So those are some of the things that I've learned, you know, along the way how we make change stick.
SPEAKER_04:And what is uh a bore-level decision you've made that felt risky at the time, but turn out to be the smartest move in the room?
SPEAKER_05:I mean, of course, we always like to you know think of only the smart decisions. By the way, it's equally as important sometimes to talk about the less smart decisions we've made, but let's talk about one smart one that I that I feel uh you know I've been a strong part of. And that was actually in a business where we were already market leaders. So we had the leading brand, this was a branded products business, um, and we proactively disrupted ourselves and the status quo because we launched actually and expanded, you know, our business into another brand, a lower price brand. So when you're the market leader, you have to got the best brand, you know, and so on. That is actually, you know, can be a pretty risky move because you might actually sell the same amount for lower price. Okay, and that's risky. Um, but um there were a lot of elements that the team had thought about in terms of how to execute this such that it would add to the business that felt strong, but it was still pretty risky. Um, and um, in the end, you know, what happened was indeed good execution, good strategy, good execution, good culture uh brought this all together. And this brand um actually accelerated the growth of the business from historically 5% to 20%. And profit also grew in similar uh ranges, so you can imagine how beautiful um of a decision this turned out to be.
SPEAKER_04:It's a memorable one. And you want to tell me a mistake then, since uh you said you learn more from mistakes.
SPEAKER_05:Ah, that's that's good. I mean, yeah, look, um sometimes um I would say the mistake I've made is uh not maybe pushed hard enough for change um when I already knew it had to happen. Okay. Um that's definitely, and by the way, many people say that, but it has also happened to me. You know, for example, I mean, let's say on the brand portfolio, because we were on a brand portfolio here. You know, a brand has limited chances to grow back, but you have a very engaged brand team that comes to you and says, you know, we we have an idea, we want to do this, you know, turn things around. Exactly. And you know, you you kind of you in in the depth of your heart, you know it's very unlikely that they can do it, and you still go ahead with it. Um, so that would be the typical mistake we all, I mean, I've made it for sure. I mean, of course, it's it it also goes in other areas where you know, ah, this is not going quite the way it should, and we really don't always act on the instinct um as quickly. Um, and of course, what I will say is there is confirmation bias maybe also at play, because when you think about it afterwards, you say, I should have acted faster. Um, of course, that's always the trap that we need to um also um avoid that we say, yeah, yeah, knowledge, uh, you know, hindsight uh is 2020, right?
SPEAKER_03:That's what people say. You're always wiser after.
SPEAKER_05:Yes. But but there are, you know, you make mistakes. I mean, I think the critical thing, the philosophy that I've always liked to implement is um first of all, try to figure out the risk um of decisions we are taking. Can we reverse them? You know, what's the you know, what's the maximum when it comes to financial, what's the maximum cash exposure that we have? And in an ideal world, you know, you want to um, you know, spend a little and learn a lot. And even if you fail, I mean be be then ready to say, okay, this didn't work, you know, cut it and don't fall in love too much with the idea, which is what we were talking about. But it's really, really helpful um to at least, you know, then say, okay, you know, we tried this, it didn't work. Why did it not work? Go a bit deeper into it, study it, and learn, you know, build a culture where it's okay that we didn't get it right. It's okay to fail.
SPEAKER_04:Just keep trying. Exactly. And what do people misunderstand about power in the corporate world? And how do you define it now?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I mean, people confuse power with dominance. Oh. Most of the time, or very often. Um, to me, and I've learned that over time because I've seen incredibly effective leaders that were not your standard big person. Yeah, exactly. So, real power is the ability to influence um and to ensure that things get done with excellence, ideally. That's real power. Um, and sometimes this also can mean that you need to get out of the way and let the right people do the work. Don't try to, you know, micromanage, you know, things. Um, so that's um that's that type of power is really helps you shape outcomes um without showing your hand always. And that's sometimes also what's underrated. I mean, people still very often think about the alpha male, you know, leader. And sometimes that's necessary because people need to have this visible person in the room, particularly when there is a lot of uncertainty and so on. Then you need to at least you know be very visible and you need to give people clarity. Um, certainty you most of the time cannot give them, but you can give them clarity. Um, but um, but in in many cases, it's also helpful to really actually work you know on different stakeholders um to make things happen. That can be very powerful.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and influence is is the real power, as you were saying, is the the the ability to change people's mind, to push them forward, to even when there's no certainty, that they still feel the trust that they can say, okay, we don't know what's gonna happen, but we're gonna try. As a team, we're gonna keep pushing forward. And and and this is uh this is the the connection that that is that is shared among the team. And it can you can really tell when it's uh uh um an influenced person or influenced uh leader that can really uh uh push the team forward even when there's there's nothing uh to there's nothing uh on the horizon, so it's only darkness. Um so that's this is a this is a beautiful way of seeing it, like really influence the the team, influence the change, influence the mindset, inspire as well. I think that that is really the power of of in in inside leadership. Absolutely, indeed.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, not always the dominance, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Not always the the big uh the big person in the room with the with the loudest voice.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_04:And if AI could analyze your career like a data set, what would it probably get wrong about your impact?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about that, and um probably AI would say I was optimizing outcomes because you know, I mean, I'm talking about track record and all of that. Um, but actually, you know, what it really was behind that is balancing contradictions. Um, really stability versus reinvention, you know, where do you keep things stable, where do you invest, where do you innovate, you know, that type of um contradiction. Um how do you manage ego versus mission? Yeah, within Teams, maybe. Um, how do you manage control, which you need to have, versus entrepreneurial freedom, which you also want? So, really, as we look at this, you know, more sort of the what's behind the curtain, I would say it's often managing these contradictions using really all available experience, you know, input, uh, intuition, everything to make that happen. And then, you know, you see the outcomes.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it makes sense. So it's it's not the that it's it's not the obvious typical answer. It's it's looking under the hood. Exactly. Exactly. And let's talk governance. What is a rule, policy, or norm you've seen weaponize in ways that kill innovation?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I mean, so I I would like to use a term that um I hope it it's a bit provocative, okay, but um I think it it brings it to life. There is uh smart complexity and governance, and there is a dumb complexity and governance, okay? And what do we mean by that? Um well, certain processes we need because you know we have a duty to stakeholders, to shareholders, and we need to make sure and and we need to understand our risks, and we need to focus on managing those risks in the best way. Dumb governance is that we manage all risks, all possible risks, whether they're big or small, in the same way, and then drive an enormous amount of complexity, which then obviously stifles a company to go for innovation. And it comes a little bit back to what I was talking about earlier. You can think about maybe, you know, taking a little bit more risk on something small. Okay, try it out, learn. Um, you don't need to manage it in the with the same risk processes as you know the really big risks that you have. So that's what I would say is is is really what I would say is sometimes uh you know the outcome when governance gets weaponized. So if you do it smart, you know, then you put the guardrails in place, freedom within a framework, you focus on the big risks, you focus a lot on those. But if you um, you know, don't distinguish, that's when when you stifle innovation. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:So make sure to understand and classify things accordingly and treat them as they are, not as you want them to be or wish them to be, but as they are. Yeah. Yeah, perfect. And what advice uh for leaders you will give who wants to feel in control but are entering markets or technologies where control is an illusion?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so I think we um already had a bit of that concept earlier, but I mean let's bring it out more broadly. I would say um you need to distinguish between controlling and containing. Um you cannot obviously command volatility. And I've worked uh you know about 10 years in emerging markets. There's a currency that will collapse, you know, from time to time in country X or Country Y. Um and you know, you can't control that. Um what you can um control or influence is obviously how you react to it.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Um and you can set principles. Actually, it's a good idea to set principles up front. So that's what we talk about containment, right? Um, so for us in in emerging markets, it was pretty clear that we would protect cash of the company very quickly. And we had certain, you know, ways of doing that. And teams were prepared mentally that if such a thing would happen, okay, they go and execute. Um, so containment was relatively clear. You know, we would not, for example, you know, when the currency devalues sell at the same price, you know, because we couldn't afford that, you know, we would have made a lot of losses. We also had principles around um we invest only up to X amount, you know, a negative cash flow in country X or Y. And it it, you know, teams knew that if they went beyond that threshold, you know, there would be no more investment. Because of course, you often invest first before you get back uh a return, but being clear on how what's the maximum that you're willing to go for and being clear up front and explaining it to people, again, containing your risk so that uh you don't realize all of a sudden, oh, half the company is gone, is gone now. Exactly. Um, that that's really a good way, I would say, um, to manage uncontrollable markets.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, there are many others, but I would say that from a governance standpoint risk management, mitigate risk according to what it is, and and and try to see a clear picture.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and and be prepared, you know, be have principles already up front. Okay, so this is the idea about containment, saying, okay, this is the maximum I'm willing to go, this is the maximum I'm willing to lose. This is the max, this is the procedure or the way I will act if this, this, this, or this happens. I had situations happening um in emerging markets where, for example, um tax inspectors would come to a plant and you know, then asked, you know, to be paid off. Oh wow, okay. Um, you know, as a as a girl. Yeah, exactly. And we we had call it upfront principles as to how to act in such a case.
SPEAKER_02:Oh wow. Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Um, so that you know, pe people wouldn't be left, you know, in a very stressful situation trying to figure it out. Yeah. So that's what I mean. So you contain, you know, the risk up front, you say, okay, and you you have maybe then support as well. But that's what you want to do.
SPEAKER_04:You don't want to be you don't want to panic in the moment, especially something like that so delicate, because you say, Well, if I do it, it is strong. If I don't do it, we we may be at risk.
SPEAKER_05:So it's it's uh yeah, you have you have uh um a procedure procedure, it sounds a bit too formal, but you have a process at least, you know, where the person calls and but but already knows, you know, they will be protected, for example, that type of thing.
SPEAKER_04:That's a pretty extreme example, but it's one that I believe is it happens and it happens, and it can happen also in different ways, not necessarily uh uh um in in the way of an authority that can give you a lot of harm, but it can happen also in other ways that can compromise your ethics or can compromise the company's well-being. And it's important to know that there is a way of dealing with it, and and you are secure in a way. So it takes away the pressure of the individual that happens to have this uh issue at hand. Exactly, exactly. Makes sense. Yeah, so no control but containment, containment, containment. I like that. I will think about that with my kids.
SPEAKER_03:No control but containment.
SPEAKER_04:And what um what is the moment when you knew this isn't just about numbers, this is about legacy.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I mean, of course, um I mean when former team members tell me um that I've had a profound impact um on their development and their careers, yeah, I mean, those are you know the moments when you realize it's actually really not about the numbers, it's about legacy. When people tell me, oh, actually, we observed you here, and that really helped us later in in this particular aspect. Or um, you know, I mean, of course, you know, sometimes they will also criticize me, but of course, generally, you know, when people say, Oh, but you really helped us here, those are legacy moments.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and and sometimes you don't realize it when you're impacting people, and and they come later to you and say, Well, you really inspire me when you said this or when you talk about that. And and and you get really touched when people uh uh reveal that to you because it it is it it is not obvious. Uh at least in in my experience, I've never been uh in in the in the moment when I'm doing the the impact, I've never been aware that I'm actually doing the impact. Exactly.
SPEAKER_05:And by the way, I mean I will go also to the tougher side, you know, and tell you an honest story as well on the opposite side. Uh, but it was wonderful still in the end. Um, some team member a few years ago came to me and said, you know, we were very angry with you. And and I go, okay, what have I done? And they said, Yeah. People said you said yes to XYZ project. And you know, it was so much work, you know, and it really didn't make sense, you know, and people just said Hydrant said yes. And I said, Oh my god, you know, I didn't realize, you know, this was uh, you know, such an issue. And by the way, I don't even remember having said yes to it. I probably sat in a meeting, you know, and just uh, you know, didn't object, said, okay, yeah, sounds like a good idea, you know, and didn't really uh you know engage deeply. But it was also a good sign because, you know, people felt, and and I I thanked him. I said, thank you that you told me.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, because they have the the um the trust in you to to be themselves and tell you the truth of what they thought about uh what happened, uh because you have built that relationship with that person. So that's that's also tells uh uh that is a great working environment when your your team is not afraid of coming forward.
SPEAKER_05:Absolutely, absolutely, but I also realized you know the power, the um that was invisible to me, my power that was invisible to me, because me just maybe making a little side comment in a meeting, saying, Oh yeah, sounds like a good idea would trigger something. A chain of events, yeah, yeah. So those are so yeah, so it was great to have the trust of the team to tell me it made me understand um that I had perhaps more power than I thought I did, and that I needed to be conscious of that. Um, and yeah, it of course, you know, led to you know, good uh, you know, moments, uh, you know, leadership moments further down the line. Yeah, to you learn, you grow, and you adapt.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, now we're going to the game part of the podcast. Um, first we're gonna have a flash section. So you he you need to pick one. You can justify if you want, but you don't have to. And but also you can pick both because that had happened many times that people love to pick both, or they pick uh or they pick none of them. Are you ready? Okay, transformation fatigue or reinvention adrenaline.
SPEAKER_05:For me, it's reinvention adrenaline. I mean, you see, of course, I'm working, you know, on the cutting edge of science. You're energized, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and that's the learning, so clearly that perfect compliance or bold innovation?
SPEAKER_05:It will be innovation, however, um, compliance is the floor on which you want to build, and innovation is the ceiling. So I do want to have compliance as the floor as well.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, perfect. I like that. Um uh it's a it's a very clear uh visual floor compliance, innovation ceiling. So you you you come from the floor up to the roof. Legacy company with issues or promising scale up with chaos.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I mean, uh my my trajectory shows that it will be the scale up. Um, I mean, really enabling turning chaos um into clarity is eventually, of course, quite exciting. I will say that I also appreciate helping companies that are struggling. Um, but of course, the energy is different. Yeah, of course, of course, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Trust the algorithm or challenge the assumptions. Challenge the assumptions. You talked about that at least.
SPEAKER_07:That's very clear.
SPEAKER_05:Strategy first or people first? So I have to choose one. Now we talked about a triangle already. So I have to choose one, it will be people first. However, you heard my theory around the triangle. Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
SPEAKER_04:Private equity speed or public company scrutiny? I mean private equity speed, but with thoughtfulness. Okay, not just about profit.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Deal heat or due diligence come. So it is deal heat, but I really want to make sure that I can rely on thorough due diligence to make that deal. So a combination. Yeah, I need to have you know great teams that do due diligence or part of that myself. I also dig deep. But I then I of course get the energy from the deal heat, of course. Valuation boost or stakeholder trust. Trust? Always. I have valuation follows trust. I mean, in the end. I mean, not in the short term maybe, but in the long term. Yeah, it's what sticks around.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And finally, AI buzzwords or plain speak honestly.
SPEAKER_05:Honesty.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, now you take the palette of futurist and or true or futurist. So you have to pick um true in the case that the scenario is something that you think that is happening already, is part of our everyday life, or it's about to happen. Then you pick a futurist if you think that it's something way in the future, it may never happen, or hopefully it won't happen. Okay. Board members will be rated publicly by shareholders. That is already partially true. Okay. Executive teams will use biometric stress data to decide when not to make key decisions. Maybe one day. Luxury brands would require a permit to use the term sustainable.
SPEAKER_05:That's partially true already.
SPEAKER_04:It's already happening in regulation. Yeah. A bar will reject a CEO candidate based on their digital footprint. It's already happening. Be careful what you post. Absolutely. Um, ESG performance will be verified through autonomous auditing bots, not firms.
SPEAKER_05:One day, maybe, but we talked about autonomous AI, co-pilots maybe soon. Okay. Autonomous. Not yet.
SPEAKER_03:Not yet.
SPEAKER_04:AI will be used to simulate shareholders' reactions to mayor decisions before the press release goes out.
SPEAKER_05:Absolutely, it's already happening. You can do it today.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Sharing a board will require former certification in AI literacy and digital risk. One day, maybe. As AI populates more spaces. Exactly. A company's carbon footprint will appear on product packaging by law.
SPEAKER_05:About, I mean, that's time works, of course, is into some of that.
SPEAKER_04:The most valuable metric for investors will be um will be how quickly a company admits it was wrong. Generally true. Yeah. Of course, some exceptions, but generally true. And finally, companies will be sued for performance in performative innovation.
SPEAKER_05:Futuristic. Now they could be sued for bad capital allocation potentially, but that's still pretty far out.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And it's also hard to measure.
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so final question um of the day. If you could redesign the way boards create impact in the next 10 years, what would you change first?
SPEAKER_05:Some boards um are spending a lot of time on quarterly reviews and typically also looking at the past. In an ideal world, I'd like to see a little bit more strategic capacity building. Um, maybe also think about the rhythm in a different way, although that's already changing. I mean, some boards are meeting more frequently and maybe shorter. Um, also, um every board should include somebody who challenges um and not necessarily disrupts to just commercial, but um, there should be some uncomfortable questions asked, and and it's important um ideally to have that in in a board composition. Um also um as we are thinking about what is the ideal board composition, I it should not just reflect experience. You know, I've been the CEO of a company X for 30 years or CEO of Company Y, but it should probably also um reflect exposure to risk, to scale, to failure, and to emerging tech. And some of this we are seeing already today um in board searches, but I think that's really it that helps then build judgment at the board level if you have combination of these experiences.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much. Uh thank you for reminding us that leadership isn't just about numbers, it's about vision, agility, and knowing when to reinvent the playbook. Because in a world racing toward smarter everything, the sharper's edge isn't just tech, it's the people who know how to wield it. And sometimes the boldest transformation begins with a well-placed question and a fearless answer. Thank you so much. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for listening to Intangibilia, the podcast of Intangible Law. Plain talk about intellectual property. Did you like what we talked about today? Please share with your network. Do you want to learn more about intellectual property? Subscribe now on your favorite podcast player. Follow Wells on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter. Visit our website www.intangiblia.com. Copyright Leticia Caminero 2020. All rights reserved. This podcast is provided for information purposes only.
